Curse

yesitsrob · Dec 25, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Well ever considered that some people who want to do an elite mission don't are in a huge allaince ? Or don't have a full friendlist of elite mission/area farmers ?

Ever considered that they should consider getting a friends list/alliance

Quote:

Everyone should be able to do an elite mission or elite area... and I personally don't think a-net would make it impossible for one proffesion to do an elite mission/area but as we all know people prefer not to think out of the box...
Still those same people are angry about this build beeing to powerfull while they would never allow a paragon in there teams because they would have to change the cookiecutterbuild they are playing. And if you do get em far enough to get you in your team than they start quiting the moment it get messy.

It never was impossible for any class to not be able to do an elite mission, again, thats people being bad, bad = running obs flesh tanks etc. I don't like elite mission cookie cutter builds, not because they are cookie cutter, but because they are a pile of crap. Lets see...

DoA - A Necro/Ranger with Spirits and BiP
3 Horrid Monks, in particular a waste of a slot bonder
3 SF Eles - because eles are good for damage... riiight..
1 Obsidian Flesh Tank - the most stupid concept of a build ever

Last I checked The Deep had Shove warriors... I mean people could just have others bring gale for the aspects.. and I'm sure now if people have a hint of common sense they'd be running You Move Like A Dwarf on where it makes sense, but still the Deep build was trash

The Urgoz build was about the worse of the lot, it couldn't possibly be any slower

Quite frankly, when the guild I'm in and our friends lists do elite missions we'll rarely have the same build - just incase you did happen to be thinking I was running the typical cookie cutters, which you seemed to

Quote:

Well ever considerd that mabye the not elitest gwplayer isn't dumb but just doesn't want to do it with a cookiecutterbuild ?

Quote:

Ever considerd that they mabye want to do that elite mission with there ,godforbid, paragon ?

Ever considered some people think Paragons are the single most imbalanced thing in the entire game, they are stupid in PVE, they are stupid in PVP. They are even more stupid in PVE since the addition of PVE skills - And ever considered out of the about 40 times I've done DoA all the way through there has not been one time where I didn't have a Paragon. Again, don't use the badness of others to justify why PVE skills should be as ridiculous as they are - if people fail to see just how overpowered paragons are, their fault.

Quote:

But that before pve skills get inplented that was a no-go ?

For bad players.

Quote:

Ever considerd that anet mabye didn't want it that only people playing proffesion x,y and z can do the elite mission while the rest of the proffesion are left out ?

I've already said, it was never exclusive, just people sucking at the game. (a lot of the time)

Quote:

Ever considerd that those people are happy that they can finally do there elite missions, something they wanted to do for o so long but couldn't due to cookiecutterbuilds ?

They could have anyway, if they learned to play and found other people that knew how to play.

So great you've just listed a ton of shit I _don't_ do but I've still succeeded in absolutely everything in PVE. Ever considered if they weren't bad or didn't hang around with bad they would have been just fine before PVE skills - kind of relates to when I said most GW players aren't too good. It's not elitism, just truth. Also somewhat understandable, it's definitely not the easiest of games, and with so many choices you can make it takes a lot of playing it to really understand even some of the fundamentals

Quote:

For alot of people pugs are the only way, and those people still diserve to do the elite mission, no?

No, it's elite, pugs aren't elite, if they want to be able to do it they should get off their asses and find a guild that does do them once they know how to play. If you suck, you shouldn't be able to do an elite mission, otherwise it kind of means it's not elite.

Quote:

tof mabye ?

Paras I play with run TNTF and Save Yourselves, there's absolutely no reason to bring ToF at all

Quote:

I was just trying to show that the paragon build isn't so uberpowerfull as some claim

You failed, because it absolutely is as powerful as people claim. If you aren't seeing just how powerful it is someone is seriously "doing it wrong"

wazz · Dec 25, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

well paragons aren't overpowered...you would know that if you would actually play a paragon build ... The only people seeming to claim it beeing overpowered are the ones who only have read the skilldiscriptions and etc.

IMO you alteast should have played the proffesion before you start yelling it is overpowered.

Also you never seem to get in contact with the normal gwplayer, as the normal gwplayer actually likes all the pve-skills for the only reason that the normal gwplayer finally can do the more elite stuff. Stuff that before was reserved for allaince/guild teams and cookiecutterbuild users.

Also you seem to hate pugs but you don't seem to know where you talk about... you seem to hate people in a pug without a decent reason.

If you have never seen someone take tof in his bar than you haven't seen alot of paragons in action...

Ok according to you everyone should join a big allaince and everyone should be elite... ever considered that some people play this game about 2 hours a day tops or only in the week-ends? And that those people also want to do an elite mission just for the fun of it?

The majority of the gwplayers don't suck unlike you think.
Most gwplayers don't have enough of time,enough knowledge about the game etc. to come up with a (team)build for an elite mission.
So they can do 2 things:
either use pve skills
or use a cookiecutterbuild

Before there was only one option: cookiecutterbuilds

Now finally a-net gave us an other way: pve skills.

You can do elite mission and areas without the use of the cookiecutterbuild and without the use of pve skills but keep in mind that you need tons of times to come up with a decent working teambuild on your own or with the help of your allaince, aside from that most people don't know each other good enough to be able to play along like a (decent) team.

yesitsrob · Dec 26, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

I don't think people who play for 2 days a week and don't study the game should be able to do elite missions, no, there's already enough content for casual people, and I genuinely believe there should be content that will actually challenge the better players.

You're wrong in about all of that last post and I can't be bothered arguing with you anymore.

Clarissa F · Dec 26, 2007, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Anet gave PvE skills as a buff after they nerfed skills because of the PvP meta being screwed. It was realizing that PvP and PvE might not be as compatible as they thought, and different skills were needed for AI mobs and level 28/30 bosses. It wasn't done so more groups could do elite missions.

Paragons were meant to give these types of buffs to teams. Read(I know, it's tough) about what they were meant to be. A leader inspires his team to higher achievement(shouts, anthems, refrains), and the paragon was given a weapon for leading from the midrange and inspiring the group forward to victory(the spear). You take that away, and you make him a glorified ranger/monk.

Try playing a paragon yourself. Play it through the game, then cry about how "uber" they are. Otherwise, it's just another whiner with no firsthand experience.

Illusionary Barrage · Dec 26, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Back to the orignal topic, My paragon use to make me feel dirty until i bought Norn armor now he has pants =D,
Topic At Hand = some people think paragons are overpowered because of the mass damage reduction but are u considering the abilities other classes have of being able to do mass dmg? think outside the box D:

Moloch Vein · Dec 26, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Are these people for real?

I'm an intermediate player. I rolled a paragon and completed the Nightfall mission. I didn't use more than one other human player for any of the missions, unless I wanted to do someone a favor. I rolled through the last 5 during an afternoon with one friend. We never came close to failing anything.

During Shiro mission, nothing died and nothing came close to dying. During Abaddon mission, nothing died and nothing came close to dying.

I'm not a good paragon. I knew very little about paragons, and had never played one in PvE. I had lightbringer rank 1, and my sunspear rank was maybe 4. My Kurzick rank (since we'd switched alliance I couldn't buy Luxon skills) was 1.

It was still considerably easier and above all else more brainless than completing the same campaign on my necromancer, who has around 10 million XP - a class I know just about everything there is to know about, and an extremely strong PvE class.

Yes, paragons are overpowered. Anyone stating otherwise does not understand the game, and probably fall into the same category they try to imbue on others.

Illusionary Barrage · Dec 26, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Your point proves nothing, anybody can go through the nightfall campaign with ease, its simple, easy to read, and they practically give you the missions bonuses for free, The point here is Elite areas.

You can't say a Paragon is overpowered because he does the job he is intended to do "SUPPORT" the party, Thats like saying assasins are overpowered because they can spike.

Avarre · Dec 26, 2007, 06:53 AM // 06:53

The game is meant to be based on how good you are and reward you for it. That implies balancing towards the top level of players, not the guy who just started playing and doesn't know anything or anyone.

Making the game super easy for everyone cheapens the game for everyone. Why bother becoming good or joining guilds or practicing or playing together when you can just rock face with heroes and PvE skills?

Moloch Vein · Dec 26, 2007, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Of course I can - I can say he's doing the job he is "intending" to do too well.

Nice of you to bring up assassins. If assassins could kill any other character in the game by pressing 1, would they be overpowered? I mean, that's what an assassin is "supposed to do", isn't it? Kill people?

kobey · Dec 26, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

There's a reason why I started playing my paragon and don't log on my other 8 characters lately

Its so awesome that I must get fow armor for him, even though it means selling away my warrior's stuff.

Paragon not overpowed? Lets just say I call my paragon team "The Immortals" (as compared to my other team builds)

Targuil · Dec 26, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by kobey

Paragon not overpowed? Lets just say I call my paragon team "The Immortals" (as compared to my other team builds)

QFT. Only one from my group who ever takes more damage than 10% of health is me. Why? Watch yourself isn't self target. So... monks just prot me and we kill everything. Armor ignoring damage may do something but i haven't faced it in eotn HM so far. (I was bored, started eotn with HM, normal is far too cake)

yesitsrob · Dec 26, 2007, 01:21 PM // 13:21

No ones arguing that Paragons aren't supposed to be able to "support" your party, people agree with that. What's being argued is that they shouldn't be able to support them to the extent their health bars will not drop, which they can do right now.

Quote:

Topic At Hand = some people think paragons are overpowered because of the mass damage reduction but are u considering the abilities other classes have of being able to do mass dmg? think outside the box D:

Except.. other classes don't do too much damage... you need to hit yourself with this box you're thinking outside of.

I also have played a paragon, but I also don't NEED to play a paragon to know how ridiculous they are, much in the same way I don't need to make a film to know Goodfellas is amazing - it's pretty goddamn clear how amazing they are, if you aren't seeing this, you're the one who needs to play Paragon, preferably a lot better than you have been playing it.

That armor ignoring damage is correct too, like.. it's the only thing that will still threaten you, but there's absolutely no where near enough of it anywhere in the game to cause a challenge.

upier · Dec 26, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

That armor ignoring damage is correct too, like.. it's the only thing that will still threaten you, but there's absolutely no where near enough of it anywhere in the game to cause a challenge.

Make that "life stealing" since (NON-life stealing-)armour ignoring damage is reduced by TNTF and it's siblings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I'm not a good paragon. I knew very little about paragons, and had never played one in PvE. I had lightbringer rank 1, and my sunspear rank was maybe 4. My Kurzick rank (since we'd switched alliance I couldn't buy Luxon skills) was 1.

Here's a thing I am wondering.
Since a paragon can only be made in Elona - how did you pass the quest
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/And_a_Hero_Shall_Lead_Them
with a rank of "maybe 4"?

wazz · Dec 26, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

No ones arguing that Paragons aren't supposed to be able to "support" your party, people agree with that. What's being argued is that they shouldn't be able to support them to the extent their health bars will not drop, which they can do right now.

I'm wondering about wich skillbar are you talking ?
You still take damage when using this build, this build is ment to vanquish with and is pretty decent when used in a vanquish but it doesn't turn you into an unkillable god at all. You could actually try the build out before you jump to conclusions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

I also have played a paragon, but I also don't NEED to play a paragon to know how ridiculous they are, much in the same way I don't need to make a film to know Goodfellas is amazing - it's pretty goddamn clear how amazing they are, if you aren't seeing this, you're the one who needs to play Paragon, preferably a lot better than you have been playing it..

I'm wondering about wich paragon skill are you talking ?
All those amazing paragon skills are nerfed to oblivion, each single one of em.
The only skill you seem to find overpowered is sy but that skill is a warrior shout...
It is a nice build but it doesn't make you unkillable and the build also had its downsides.
I have used that build for a while now and I know that from the moment you use splitt tactics, end up fighting mobs that use spells/hexes that consume your energy, make you not gain adraline, make it inpossible for you to attack or keep you from shouting.. you can be shutdown completely.
Also the moment you have a miss-agro in HM you are as good as death, you might last longer than the average group, but you are still gonne die.

I won't argue on the point of how good I em in playing a paragon... if you want me to show off with titles/ show off how I do an elite mission/ show off vanquishing than just PM me ingame and form your opinion about it after I did that.

Moloch Vein · Dec 26, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Here's a thing I am wondering.
Since a paragon can only be made in Elona - how did you pass the quest
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/And_a_Hero_Shall_Lead_Them
with a rank of "maybe 4"?

Yes, I was wrong about the rank numbers. Life sucks.

Moloch Vein · Dec 26, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

I won't argue on the point of how good I em in playing a paragon... if you want me to show off with titles/ show off how I do an elite mission/ show off vanquishing than just PM me ingame and form your opinion about it after I did that.

I find this mildly amusing.

yesitsrob · Dec 26, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

I'm wondering about wich skillbar are you talking ?
You still take damage when using this build, this build is ment to vanquish with and is pretty decent when used in a vanquish but it doesn't turn you into an unkillable god at all. You could actually try the build out before you jump to conclusions.

I'm wondering about wich paragon skill are you talking ?
All those amazing paragon skills are nerfed to oblivion, each single one of em.
The only skill you seem to find overpowered is sy but that skill is a warrior shout...
It is a nice build but it doesn't make you unkillable and the build also had its downsides.
I have used that build for a while now and I know that from the moment you use splitt tactics, end up fighting mobs that use spells/hexes that consume your energy, make you not gain adraline, make it inpossible for you to attack or keep you from shouting.. you can be shutdown completely.
Also the moment you have a miss-agro in HM you are as good as death, you might last longer than the average group, but you are still gonne die.

I'm referring to something along the lines of

Spear of Lightning
Focussed Anger {E}
"Save Yourselves"
"There's Nothing To Fear"
For Great Justice
Signet of Return
Aggresive Refrain

^ Something like that - This does in fact turn your team into a team of unkillable machines. If it's failing at doing that, either you or a member of your team is doing something very wrong.

Quote:

I won't argue on the point of how good I em in playing a paragon... if you want me to show off with titles/ show off how I do an elite mission/ show off vanquishing than just PM me ingame and form your opinion about it after I did that.

That's really cute.

wazz · Dec 26, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

I'm referring to something along the lines of

Spear of Lightning
Focussed Anger {E}
"Save Yourselves"
"There's Nothing To Fear"
For Great Justice
Signet of Return
Aggresive Refrain

^ Something like that - This does in fact turn your team into a team of unkillable machines. If it's failing at doing that, either you or a member of your team is doing something very wrong..

Ir does not... plz try out the build on HM first will you ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

That's really cute.

thx, but really unless you see me in action, you don't really look like you even gonne lissen to what I'm saying. And I'm just not the type that gonne start with I got title a,b and c I did elite mission d on hm blablabla...

yesitsrob · Dec 26, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Ir does not... plz try out the build on HM first will you ?

I have, or have been in a group that has, we uterrly destroyed Mallyx with it on our first try, arguably the most difficult thing in PVE - Also completely rolled through Underworld, Urgoz Warren, and Fissure - If it's not working for you you're doing it wrong. Also got the highest quaterly score on Zos Shivros by 4 times the previous one which is all about holding off large numbers of enemies running that Paragon build. It's going to be extremely difficult for you to prove to me it doesn't work when it's practically never failed in partys I've been in, unless said Paragon happens to Disconnect - like seriously stop making stupid assumptions, there's not a single thing in Hard Mode I haven't done.

Quote:

thx, but really unless you see me in action, you don't really look like you even gonne lissen to what I'm saying. And I'm just not the type that gonne start with I got title a,b and c I did elite mission d on hm blablabla...

I've listened to everything you said, just because I've not agreed with any of it at all doesn't mean I'm not listening sir.

wazz · Dec 26, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

I have, or have been in a group that has, we uterrly destroyed Mallyx with it on our first try, arguably the most difficult thing in PVE - Also completely rolled through Underworld, Urgoz Warren, and Fissure - If it's not working for you you're doing it wrong. Also got the highest quaterly score on Zos Shivros by 4 times the previous one which is all about holding off large numbers of enemies running that Paragon build. It's going to be extremely difficult for you to prove to me it doesn't work when it's practically never failed in partys I've been in, unless said Paragon happens to Disconnect - like seriously stop making stupid assumptions, there's not a single thing in Hard Mode I haven't done.

you might have done everything on HM but not everything on HM with that build... And also I wonder how you managed to take down mallyx with that build without the paragon having to spamm I'm hexed with.. every 15 seconds.
I have vanquished alot of areas with that build and I did get teamwhiped now and then... it isn't flawless at all.
The build isn't overpowerful, it has it weaknesses...if you would play that build as much as I do you would know that.

At the other hand if it is soo powerful how would you want to balance it out ?

And also can you stop saying that I'm doing something wrong when running that build ? You have never seen me in action but still you claim I suck at it.